STEREOSCOPE
Welcome to the STEREOSCOPE Podcast, the place where we dive deep into everything immersive video. From VR180, 3D360, Spatial Video, Volumetric to Photogrammetry, we cover it all. Our show is dedicated to covering the latest news, best practices, and workflows that are essential to the immersive video community. The VR industry has been a major force behind the rapid growth of this medium and we are excited to showcase how it impacts immersive video. Every episode, we feature two videos created by our talented community members to inspire and showcase the amazing work being done in this space. Join us on the next phase of cinema as we gaze through the STEREOSCOPE.
STEREOSCOPE
Exploring Interactive Video Futures: Human Within, Theater Elsewhere, and VR180 Storytelling with Kuya Quatro!
How do groundbreaking interactive video experiences like the upcoming Human Within shape the future of storytelling? Join us as we engage with Kuya Quatro to explore the fascinating evolution of immersive media. We delve into the nuances of VR storytelling and discuss how genres such as sci-fi, horror, and fantasy offer unparalleled opportunities for world-building and audience engagement. We contemplate the ongoing journey toward seamlessly blending video games with cinematic experiences.
Our conversation shines a light on Meta's innovative animation platform, Theater Elsewhere, and its transformative impact on 3D animation experiences. We discuss how tools like Quill are revolutionizing VR storytelling by blending traditional 2D painting with immersive 3D environments. Highlighting the creative potential these platforms offer, we discuss the influence they have on creators like Matt Celia and explore emerging platforms like Space Vibes, Rival, and DEOVR, which are setting new standards for interaction with VR and AR content.
Shifting gears, we dive into the art of VR180 storytelling with insights from Kuya, exploring the cultural dimensions that elevate VR180 content beyond mere technical achievements. We challenge creators to think critically about the motivations and impacts of their work, moving the focus from the 'how-to' to the 'why'. This episode promises a thought-provoking exploration of the deeper layers of creativity and cultural significance within the innovative VR180 space.
Hi, I'm Byron Sean Anthony. Welcome to the Stereoscope podcast number nine. We started the Stereoscope podcast almost exactly a year ago. Yeah, true story, we've only gotten nine out of there.
Speaker 2:But hey, you know, this stuff is difficult and we got only adult lives, and I've only been in two, including this one. Yeah, Because I too have an adult life All right.
Speaker 1:So we just did an interview with David Lazaro Koya Quatro and that was great. It went super long but it was all fantastic stuff. So we're going to race through this stuff so we can give you a great chunk of other stuff Of that conversation.
Speaker 3:Coming up Really solid conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a fantastic conversation. He had some really incredible things to say and we really loved having him on, so now we're going to do the news All right. So we're starting with some good stuff here.
Speaker 2:So, first one I saw this a couple of days ago on Road to VR and this is an interactive immersive video movie, Sort of like a Bandersnatch style of thing.
Speaker 1:Did you all ever watch Bandersnatch? No, I actually didn't. I still haven't gotten it.
Speaker 2:So well, it's actually my Netflix profile thumbnail.
Speaker 1:Netflix is removing all of their interactive TVs and shows, I think. Supposedly I heard that Bandersnatch is one of the only ones that's staying, so we watched the trailer just now and I think it looks interesting. I think we were, we were sort of mentioning that we think having sort of like a surveillance feeling to it sort of makes is one of the only ways you can make sort of like an interactive immersive thing work. What do you?
Speaker 3:guys think well, I don't know about only, I mean, and it's not only, but it also kind of just depends on exactly how this thing plays out. Because there's this is really a hybrid experience, right, there's a lot of video and there's a lot of in in headset capture. It's almost like a game, looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's like this interesting hybrid experience, more than calling in a movie and I guess they're calling in a movie, I'm not sure, but yeah, it's sort of like like carmen san diego, like you're kind of sleuthing around and there's interesting things going on with like high angles, low angles that I think were specifically work really well with a thriller, but might not work so well with, like you know, travel or something a little more cheerful well, yeah, and remember, we are watching like the like 2 version.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we haven't seen this yet.
Speaker 3:So it's so hard to comment on what you're actually going to see in 3D or what the experience is going to look like, because we're seeing this 2D YouTube.
Speaker 1:I do think that sci-fi and horror are probably the two genres that sort of like work inherently. I also think fantasy could work pretty well, because you're being transported to a place you know like yeah, I mean, I think face was the lady, even even if it's even sort of just referring to the, the, the cut scenes and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:That are the different words I mean, I think, any, any experiential thing. You know, this is like kind of reflecting on the conversation you're going to hear about, like why are you making the thing in vr to begin with, right, yeah, if you can't answer that question, then you know. So I think it with vr or with, uh, fantasy, sci-fi, what was the other one?
Speaker 3:you said or yeah, those are all things we're like transporting you into a different world, to something and making you feel very specific types of things because I which is interesting because I think the, the format is also like really good a documentary which is the opposite of all of that yeah, but it still is a transporting mechanism.
Speaker 1:How do you feel about? So? One of the things that I think a lot of people sort of sort of mesh together that aren't inherently the same is, I feel like every time there's a new medium that is really immersive, people try to force interactivity into a video medium, like like sewer shark back on the sega cd or night trap, night trap these these things that are like there's a new medium and like let's you get these buzzwords about pushing interactivity and medium.
Speaker 2:Simpler example, I'd like to throw in there Duck Hunt. If you think about it, what Duck Hunt? It's like the second Nintendo video game. No Duck Hunt For those of you who are too young to know what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:Wait, did you use the Power Glove when?
Speaker 2:you played when I like, when, when you played your stuff.
Speaker 1:did you use the Power Glove? Because we know that the Power Glove is so bad. It's also only right-handed. Yeah, lefty, erasure here the board.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but why did Nintendo force us to go into that? Was it about, I don't know? Was it the games that they were going to-? Wait, are you talking about the Wizard? Yeah, the Wizard. Okay, that's what you're talking about. Okay, we're also like okay, I think. I'm sorry, you had a point I don't want to-.
Speaker 1:Well, what I'm getting at is that whenever there's a new medium, it sort of seems to me that they force interactivity into this new format yeah, when they.
Speaker 3:Well, okay, the. Is it that or is? Have we for that long been pushing towards what we're pushing towards right now, like getting closer and closer to, because, like vr is the most interactive form of video so far. Right, even if you're not choosing your own adventure, you're at least interacting in the, in the way that you can look around in a very passive way. So it's. I think there's always been this like push to blend.
Speaker 1:You know, video games and video, and so then, like, which is why I like so many video games is from so cinematic yeah right when more of a thing that you're experiencing yeah, I'm not against them and I think it's interesting, especially as somebody who plays a lot of video games and you'll see our new video gaming show coming up soon. I can't we just let a rock be a rock sometimes?
Speaker 3:you know, I mean that's always been my fit right, especially now that we are at the place of like yeah, it's a natural fit here, instead of like really shoehorning a thing, but I mean that's how things get pushed forward so, hey, maybe the human within will pull it off, maybe this will be the thing that makes me question, question my entire reality. Yeah, but I guess that's why I've like never. I like I never got around to watching like bandersnatch, because I'm like for me it.
Speaker 3:I like the passivity of it yeah like that's, otherwise I would play a video game. I'm there sometimes I just want to veg out and I'm like picking up the remote every I watched bandersnatch a couple times.
Speaker 2:I got a couple different endings I should watch it, but it just happens, it's just never quite remember the daniel's alternate first alternate proof of concept thing was the guy ray from girls and it was basically it's out there. I forget what it's called. We should link to it. I think it's called parallels and probables, but it was about a breakup and different ways that the breakup could not have happened yeah, I actually haven't seen it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you can, it's really good yeah, it's slightly interactive interesting like you know what, 2012 or yeah, it was like 2012, yeah, and it's a good example of like the proper application, right, like that grabs my attention.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that's interesting yeah I never wanted to break up with yeah, so human within comes out in january.
Speaker 1:I think it looks pretty interesting. I think we're in this sort of. There's been a couple other projects that have been announced in the last couple days or last couple weeks that are sort of like these more super ambitious meta, either funded or being released on meta headsets projects that are coming out like now. Yeah, there's another one that just got announced called the talent singer. We are the talent stealer. I'm sorry, I'm really interested in that one. We'll see how that one goes. That one is launched. We didn't have enough time to include it here, but I thought I'd just give them a shout out. Okay, so the next one we'ved is only 11.2 millimeters. Yeah, so they're really, really close together. This seems to be so. This lens seems to be in direct relation to apple vision pro it. It seems to be an answer to Apple's spatial video and their spatial video format.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean not this, Not this, not this. Yeah, the spatial lens yeah, it's definitely it's for that content, like it's for like everybody kind of went crazy for spatial videos, which I mean I get to some extent.
Speaker 1:But I kind of feel like Well, Vimeo just launched, so Vimeo's Just do spatial not immersive. Well, the whole Vimeo spatial Apple Vision Pro platform just launched. It went live a couple of days ago. We probably should have talked about that, but I haven't tried it.
Speaker 2:Like we've said in the past, trying to review Apple Vision Pro content is incredibly difficult because it is effectively a pie-in, pie in the sky sort of situation I don't feel like people are putting their share grids out there enough Like I don't think they're using sure.
Speaker 1:I looked, there's not one available in the area within this night, the last 15 to 70 miles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because there's a glass.
Speaker 3:it's made of glass, and so who wants to ship or put it in any stranger's hand?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. Yeah, I mean the moment that shattered, I mean yeah especially because there's some of them are cracking like, seemingly yeah, I wish there was a better insurance policy or warranty.
Speaker 3:But yeah, so I don't know, I'm still kind of like, I don't know, that I personally like have a desire to shoot spatial on a bigger format, bigger camera, like I think, liking the way that, like I can just whip out my phone and get a cool spatial video, hopefully. Obviously this would overcome some of the issues with the iphone. But then there's other dedicated systems like that I'm sure there's.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there's some creator out there, oh for sure, who this like absolutely just fits.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the type of content that they want to make For $100, it's a lot more affordable than the other lenses.
Speaker 1:It's cheaper than an iPhone. It's cheaper than, and it's almost the price of that, but that's just for the lens. That's for the lens.
Speaker 3:For us it's a $500.
Speaker 1:What is the cheapest RF that this fits?
Speaker 3:Well, it looks like it's probably for Super 35. I'm not that familiar with the entire line. I Well, it looks like it's probably for Super 35. I'm not that familiar with the entire line. I feel like you could probably get an RF camera for $1,000. Maybe less, but I actually don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so at that point you're pretty much at an iPhone price anyways. Yeah, yeah, it's $450. It's available now. I think it's interesting, yeah, if we had talked about creating some sort of spatial content that we match with inside of vr 180 that's right.
Speaker 1:There's there's a few scenarios where I could definitely see the point of using like, if we end up doing that content and it does really well for us, I could see us possibly investing in it. Yeah, but for now, I mean, it's it's not for us. But yeah, I'm sure, like I said, I think there's probably somebody who's like oh man, this lens is perfect for me it was just less like I don't know.
Speaker 3:I just feel like it feels more like a novel to lens to me and maybe that's the wrong way I think, and there is a.
Speaker 1:There is a lot of, because supposedly it has autofocus in both lenses too. So that's not, that's awful, yeah, so, all right, we're gonna move on, okay. So this is another one that's sort of an existing thing that's been reformatted a little bit. So, meta, they revamped their animation player with Theater Elsewhere. Sean, you just checked this out. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it?
Speaker 2:So I love Quill. I just love the idea that you can paint in 3D and there's, like it's new to me, the idea that you can combine this traditionally flat you know medium and then turn it around. I also don't know if, like, ai is going to be able to do that for us, and I'm not even going to talk about it and in fact, I didn't even put it out there. But I've watched a few things on theater elsewhere and the whole idea that, like koya was talking about actually being either a witness or, like a fly on the wall a lot of that felt actually really applicable, but it was really. It was different, because a lot of, for a lot of the actual, I think some of the technical problems that you would get shooting live aren't there when you're animating and, yeah, you can do keyframe by keyframe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I felt like I was inside a diorama, but I was also watching this very, very short and very specific like short story about, like about a family, and one of those family members is missing and I'm like, oh, is it me? Am I the family member? It became immersive in a way that didn't feel voyeuristic. It felt really interesting to me Be able to also free fly in theater elsewhere, which is, you know, like I went to. I went to like a pool, a diving pool, and just stared at the bottom, from the bottom up, at, at, at the top of this, so you're able to dramatically change your perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's, it's.
Speaker 1:it feels simple, it's really on the controls, the, you know there's a very it's it's. There's also a lot of content on there. Oh yeah, that is something that I really do respect about quill and there elsewhere is that there's a lot of really interesting content because it you're, the limits of your creativity are really the only thing that prevents you from creating. It's not like vr 180, where you've got these absurd file formats or you can't move the camera. In this way, you can really do whatever you want. Yeah, and that's why, when we were interviewing matt celia for when he brought in the faceless lady, he said that some of his most aha moments in terms of creativity between him and his production company were watching cool videos, because he was like they don't have these limitations, so it allowed us to sort of use them as inspiration for what. Well, what if we didn't have any limit to?
Speaker 1:it Right right and I think that's really interesting.
Speaker 3:And I think further in the context of that conversation was like there's certain rules in VR that you don't do and then by exploring these different formats, you can find things that you're like well, if you do it this way, then you can't actually break that.
Speaker 1:Yeah this way, then you can't actually break that. Yeah, and it's something that we've been talking about on the podcast a lot recently is that we're sort of more we're sort of morphing the podcast into more of a immersive storytelling sort of thing, because just immersive filmmaking feels sort of limiting and there's a lot of really great stuff that's not just necessarily filmmaking, but also there's so much to learn from the different aspects within other immersive projects as well, and I think quill is a really phenomenal place. I mean, I've I've shown my partner some of these cool projects and she's like, wow, my God, this is she. She does this thing where she's like, oh, and she gets lost in her her head for a moment. It's the imaginary beard, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And so, anyways, meta revamped their previous player with this new theater elsewhere. It's much more slick, there's more discovery they have, you can follow creators and it's just generally a much more fleshed out experience. And I think it's probably because they had such an overwhelming response from the community about how much people watch this stuff, because people who watch this stuff, they absolutely love it. They go back and back to back for it. Yeah, definitely check it out. I checked out a couple of things on it and pretty impressive. What did you check out? I actually checked out the turtle one right there. You yeah you sort of you can go around see the fish make it bigger, make it smaller.
Speaker 2:I've yet to go, I've yet to try that. When I was more into the pools and yeah, yeah, just people it felt like watching a stage play, but without the fourth.
Speaker 1:I can see that.
Speaker 2:Like you're part of the out, you're part of it, like your murder mystery. Yeah, you know, I don't know. I don't know if that any makes sense. Go check it out, you won't be disappointed.
Speaker 1:We're gonna move on. So this next one this next one is a little weird because there's not a lot about it, but it it stood out to me in a way, because I'm really interested in a lot of these new platforms, because it seems like there's a lot of platforms that are people have realized that spatial stuff is happening, there is a market for it, and so we need to formalize the way that people interact with it, and so there's a couple newcomers. There's like space vibes. There's a rival Obviously there's DOVR.
Speaker 1:But this one stood out to me. It's a because it said spatial media platform and it's definitely got. So what it looks like to be is, uh, they offer tools and resources for creating and sharing VR and AR content in a package. So it looks like the majority of these experiences are Unreal Engine experiences, so like people making like the Starship Enterprise or the Throne Room from House of the Dragon, so you can go in there and you can get like upvoted. It sort of it sort of feels like itchio for spatial experiences Interesting. What do you guys think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's. It feels like going into a 3D modeling community without any experience, but still feeling it feels like the the, the learning curve, so to speak, is what Parsec is trying to funnel everyone into.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because there's a lot of documentation on how to best practices for delivering these types of contents. One thing that I've noticed is when I go into some communities, they're just sort of like a glassy-eyed like. Oh my God, I don't even know how to make a model, but I want to create these interactive spaces for people to share.
Speaker 3:So is it? This is funny because, since we just translated, we're just talking about spatial video.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:But this is not spatial in that sense. This is actual.
Speaker 1:This is like immersive six content. Yeah, I hate the state of the industry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's right here, because that word means something else to different people and I.
Speaker 1:So, as a relative neophyte, for me it feels like we've covered both film art, yeah, and now 3d modeling and I will say a little bit of this was that I was also confused when I first saw it, because I thought it was another video platform, right right, and I had already invested enough time into researching it that I was like, well, let's just include it because it's sort of relevant.
Speaker 3:I mean it is interesting and it's just it's. It's really more just that, like it's hard to keep track of. I mean and maybe this is apple's fault for, like, choosing the word spatial for something that's maybe already it's 3d framed video I'm not, I'm not gonna say apple chose that word.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna be 100. Did I think the word? I think it's emerged out of a lot of discussion around this technology before it was really commercialized. But I'm not entirely positive if spatial does.
Speaker 1:How would you have reacted if somebody said spatial video to you in 2020?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't think. I think it's academic, I think it's academic very.
Speaker 1:There are some people that get very bent out of shape with the misusage of certain concepts.
Speaker 3:Especially when Apple does it. It's especially when apple does is basically a marketing term. Yeah, so if they take yeah they take a technical term and turn it into a marketing term and it breaks half of the yeah, the discussions about it, because it's to be on the same.
Speaker 1:Like some people get really bent out of shape when they, when you call vr, video, vr, right, like they're just like no, it's not vr, it's not six off, it's not cool, yeah, but then it's like, okay, so is only full dive, vr, vr. You know, do you have to jack in? Do you have to do? You have to be like inside of the matrix and the musics, yeah, all sense of self yeah, these are the.
Speaker 3:These are interesting language problems that that I think are worth like sussing out like it's it does is better to actually go I don't understand than to go well for sure, with all the, but it's just like how can we get everybody to agree, right when you have like when, when people agree and then a company comes in and says like well, no, we're going to use this word for this and this word means that I made this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah well, yeah, I don't. That's why I, that's why I hesitate to up to push on the, to push forward on the idea that apple created this work, because then it's harder to agree with.
Speaker 3:And suddenly I'm, you, I'm, I'm back in what I'm saying is they chose to use the word spatial to describe something that's not that spatial right to this like right this to you know, a framed video, whereas before that we're using the word spatial to describe 3D audio, spatial audio and so that which is totally a 3D immersive thing, and I don't know. It's just kind of frustrating, yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like spatial media. Parsec is all about back to park, like it's about creating an experience that you know is immersive.
Speaker 3:It's about spaces, right yeah. Experience that you know is about spaces. It's right, yeah. So that's what I'm saying I think they use it correctly, I'm just not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just, it's yeah, and I I do think it's. I think it's good to have these new platforms, even if it wasn't what I expected. I, I think it's it's good to have these sort of more formalized platforms for these things, because it can be sort of daunting to share your, your creations, and sometimes you're like, hey, I wish I had a community that was more holistic about sharing this stuff, rather than like VRChat, where it just sort of gets lost in a jumble of like furries and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but Curation.
Speaker 1:Exactly Moving on, and this is actually the last topic of the week, but we have so much more from Kuya coming up in just a couple minutes. But this one is sort of a bellwether, a sign of life, if you will. This is a dead ringer in that Google is preparing their XR headsets for the play store, or at least they're preparing the plate or four for their XR head. The upcoming has and this was found by some sleuths who realized when they uploaded a new, a new app, they had the option to install to an xr device, and that was in the, the app dev kit, the app, uh, yes, yeah. And so this means that the, the x, the google xr headset is not just this ethereal sort of vaporware. Vaporware because it was supposed to launch this year, right, like we've talked about before, and I have my theories about what will happen to google's relationship to immersive media when that happens will those be on the vr 180 sub, or do we get to hear some of it right now?
Speaker 1:oh no, I just sort of wanted to get the vibe from y'all. Yeah, effectively what I? What I think is that once google launches their headsets, they're going to take immersive media dramatically more seriously, much like apple, in that they're going to start launching their own originals and they're going to start pushing immersive video on the VR app.
Speaker 3:So you think they're going to go more towards that than versus Meta's emphasis and focus on gaming?
Speaker 1:Yes, so you're saying that I think they're going to take the Apple approach, not the Meta approach.
Speaker 2:It's a very interesting thing in the parlance of the 80s and 90s. They are going to be the dreamcast to the Nintendo Super Nintendo entertainment system. I mean, does it really work? I mixed up my timelines. What year is this?
Speaker 1:in your hypothetical scenario. What year is it?
Speaker 2:It's the Neo Geo 1994 or 1999? Sorry, it's the Neo Geo to Sega's Dreamcast, which is the meta Quest 3.
Speaker 1:It would have been the SN and Super NES to the Neo Geo. But yes, I understand the analogy.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm not as. Yes, I understand the analogy. Yes, I'm not as old as I think I am.
Speaker 1:So the reason why I think that they're going to push video content is because Google is more of a video company than they are a game company.
Speaker 3:So here's an issue. I mean to circle back on that. So this is kind of commenting on something from the U vr podcast from, I think, last week yeah, I never keep track, but they were talking about like. So because we're talking about this, they're talking about google emerging into the market and that, like, typically there's usually not room for three major players in a market like we're in the phones.
Speaker 3:It's like it's android and it's iphone it's ios and android, and so, as of now, it's probably going to be Apple, because Apple has enough money to keep just burning until they are one of the major players, if not the major player, in VR and Google has 18 months on any project and if it's not successful, they kill it.
Speaker 3:They don't want to be the Blackberry. So basically it's going to be Apple and either Meta or Google. So if they go directly, basically it's going to be Apple and either Meta or Google, right, yeah? So if they go directly, it actually is a much closer parallel to iOS versus Android because they're basically exactly the same, just different.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Whereas Quest is a little bit over.
Speaker 1:And has very much focused on gaming Right and video seems to be an afterthought for them 100% Right.
Speaker 3:Right, which is interesting because in my mind I see I'm very curious to see how it plays out, because it makes sense to me to have, like, apple be video and meta be gaming yeah, because I mean right now, the most popular thing to do with the vr headset is to play games.
Speaker 1:I think yes, and it's probably not going to change for 10 years this is an I think it's probably going to change a lot quicker once people realize how much video content they can watch in these things, because I think most people just don't realize that they can watch as much video content in these devices as they think that they can.
Speaker 3:I've heard time accepting that, but I could see your point Especially, like you know, they do push from that Quest TV and stuff like that directly in the headset. I mean that's recent. That's very recent like that directly in the headset. I mean it's lots and that's recent, that's very that's reason, but like I just think that the reason like my nephews they play, you know, gorilla tag.
Speaker 1:They don't care about video at all yeah, but but that's because it's not being pushed fair enough. And I think google, because they have so much more video content and they own a google, the google play video right they. They have their own originals. They have google tv right. They have algorithm. They have spatial audio algorithms built into their tech. But they have a more. In fact, they have a more robust video platform than apple does.
Speaker 2:But may I throw in one in there? I'm surprised you didn't mention youtube well, that's what I mean well, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:I'm talking so you're saying, oh, you're saying, oh, you're saying that they're trying to do, they're trying to be like do what I'm saying is that when google launches their exit xr headset in partnership with samsung, youtube will be the very first thing that you see, and when you launch youtube, you will be pushed towards immersive videos more than you're pushed to regular videos. Right though that could, there could be some nuance to that, because right now, when you open even when you open the vr youtube app, you're still only shown flat videos. First you have to specifically go looking for, you have to go to the 360. And it says 360 videos. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:It's like so we'll see. I'm very curious to see how it plays out.
Speaker 2:I love how both of you are so immersed in the lexicon that you've lost both your minds, yes, but I can still keep up.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's like part of it lost our minds because, like google was the platform, youtube was the when we first started doing this and they pulled the rug out from under. Vr 180 is literally a term invented by google, yeah like basically, I don't think deal would be where it's at had vr had youtube not going up, rushed out of this Exactly. This didn't pay off immediately, so we're just abandoning it all. Remember.
Speaker 2:YouTube wasn't like the skunk works for Google. Youtube was its own thing and Google kept it. Well, they bought it. So this is I think. I hesitate to make this metaphor. You can think what you think. Do you know? Mcdonald's used to have playgrounds?
Speaker 2:yeah, I used to play in them, right. So I knew it. Mcdonald's play place, yeah, and you, you'd, you'd bring your kids playground and then like go hang out with grandma or somebody and like have a serious avoid the vomit in the second floor, in that playground, which had very few guardrails, you'd basically be able to like do whatever you wanted. It was not the same as like a public park or okay, you have to get. So that's what this is, that's what this is they're. They're. Google was like let's, let's see what happens if we let this XR team loose. They're really cooped up. They've been hanging out in the YouTube department for a really long time and they've been talking about this for years.
Speaker 1:The funny thing is you're actually right. It's because we know that there is a small team that is still working on the Google VR app, Because just about six months ago they enabled 8k 60 playback on the youtube vr app for standalone, which had never existed but was clearly still supported because the content that we had already uploaded worked immediately, worked right yeah, so at some point they supported it.
Speaker 1:Just turn it off. Yeah, yes, and and the moment they updated the youtube vr app, all of the stuff that we already shot in ak60 just worked, or at least didn't actually just work.
Speaker 2:It took a couple weeks to work, but I'll actually just one more thing to make that metaphor make sense. You can't bring food into the playground. The mcdonald's products stay in the diner, but okay, I get what I get.
Speaker 1:Where you're going now trying to get your likes, yeah, no, I, I do think it's uh get the mcdonald's sponsorship I do think we can the algorithm.
Speaker 1:Do you think google and samsung's xr headset is going to be a big deal when it launches? Because it's probably not going to be 3500, i500. I can guarantee you that and it's probably going to be, you know, 85 to 90% of the AVP for lower cost and not in the walled garden of Apple and I am I am more of a Google user than I am an Apple user and so getting you know a 80 to 90% Apple vision pro for less than $2,000 is very much up my but the thing is, you're already, we kind of already have that in the class, and I agree, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:And so it's like where exactly are they going to try to position this thing in the market?
Speaker 1:It's going to be. It's going to be immediate consumption device with XR, with but I mean even price like heavy, heavy pass-through AR abilities, because it won't have controllers. It'll only be hand-driven. Oh, you think, I think you'll be able to buy Samsung-enabled third-party controllers, but it will not ship with controller. Hey, welcome. This is the interview portion of the segment now, and we got Kuya with us. Kuya want to introduce yourself no-transcript 1, 2, or 6.
Speaker 4:No, that's Seattle. Excuse me, but Portland Film me, it's only three hours away. West west All day, lac all day, every day, film me hey, we out here, let's get it.
Speaker 1:Alright, awesome. So we're just gonna like, like, do. This is gonna be a little bit more casual, because I think there's there's a lot of stuff. This is like a deep culture thing that we're talking about today. We're talking about the culture of er 180, we're talking about immersive video or we're talking about immersive storytelling in a way that we don't usually get into. But I think you're 100 qualified to help us out with.
Speaker 4:I'm going to start with, I'm excited to have this conversation with you guys because there's like we mentioned earlier, there's far too much conversation when it comes to VR180 content creators, about the hardware, the how-to and the technical, and, while that is important, nobody actually asks about what makes a good vr 180 video, you know, or here's? Here's the number one question. You should be asking yourself why make this vr 180? Let me tell you. Let me tell you a quick story, okay, so so I was gearing up to do my very first narrative short for vr 180. It was called Rideshare.
Speaker 4:I was really green, but I did enough shitty, terrible vlogs to kind of make myself think, oh, I think I'm ready for doing something even bigger. Dunning-kruger effects, I believe that's the operative term. And I was talking with a homie about it at a bar. And then I was super mizzed off of my fifth Hennessy. I'm like, bro, we're going to be like VR and you're going to be able to see it. And then he just looked at me like I'm stupid, right. He's just like, bro, you're trying to bring film to VR. Why not just make a film? It's a lot easier. And I'm like, oh shit, he got you know. Yeah, he got. Oh, bro, why you got me. But you know why? Why? Why do we dream vr? We only know we. We use vr because it brings you to another reality. Right, vr? So it transports you and makes you experience a different reality. You know, like simulation. But he made a great question why do film in VR? Why not just make a film? So if your VR 180 video idea can't answer that question, why not just make it a regular TV video? Then you fail already.
Speaker 4:The one thing that I hold as my golden rule of virtuography is what I call this right is don't just show, simulate. And when it comes to writing, when it comes to film, we're always being told show, don't tell. But again, what is the best use case for VR? It's to experience a different reality. So don't just show, simulate. Like the camera represents a person's head floating in space, and if that's true, okay. So then you need to help create that simulation to make them feel like they're there.
Speaker 4:Any form of camera operation or people acting at the camera badly will break the simulation and suddenly it's like well, why, why am I? Why did I put on a vr headset? Right, to make the simulation with a video camera is rather technical, because you don't have the. You don't have all the offerings of a typical vr experience, um, that you can program like six doff or controls. Really, the only form of interaction you have is your head. So there are many things pillars I call. There are a lot of pillars that uphold this idea of show don't simulate, which I would love to just rant about for like three hours, but let me, let me toss it back to you guys, because I feel like I really just got straight into the deep end so you, you mentioned something and I I think it's really interesting because I think we have differing viewpoints on it or at least I know that I do and I think anthony has a little bit of a similar I perspective as me.
Speaker 1:so I don't think that you necessarily need to have the VR camera represent a person or a subjective view. I think it can happen and it absolutely like. That is definitely something that people go to. I think it's a little bit more nuanced than that. I think it's it is objective, more nuanced than that, I think it's. It is. Objective viewer is a little bit easier, because when you think about a camera in a regular, a flat production, nobody's thinking about what that camera is unless it's specific, like that shot in Maniac or the beginning of Halloween, where the camera's POv is literally yeah, michael, silence though I will.
Speaker 3:The only place I'll push back a little bit there is we don't think about it because we've been watching it. Like the language is so native it's melted into our you don't think about it.
Speaker 3:So only if it's an extreme case where it's pov or like a snorri camera, something like that, do you really think about it? But any actual like reverse shot, like shot. Reverse shot is basically a few of you like if somebody's looking over there and then you show them looking over there, like that is technically like putting you in their eyes for a second right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's so common the google shop effects the reason why I love vr is because, you know, I get to be Batman. I get to be the one that slices notes with my lightsabers. I get to be, you know, like in the radius, trying to get as many ammo clips and cans of pineapple. You know like I'm trying to survive in the radius. I'm in the middle of the fight and I'm whooping on NPC Anthony Jesselman. You know like I am the one doing it. I am there. Don't just show simulating. I want to feel like I'm there, and if I'm not feeling the simulation, then I might as well just watch them to be.
Speaker 3:I mean.
Speaker 3:I think, I actually think we completely agree on this. It's just, it's, it's. I think it's literally just like a, a little bit of a, whose terminology means what you know we're still in this like new thing, cause I I think we agree on that Like the main thing is being aware of what you're subjecting the viewer to, and that it's not 2D, right Like I've seen tons of 3D content where they're on a gimbal and they're moving in and they're moving out and they're moving in. They're like whoa man, there's just no way. And like they're just shooting it like it was 2D, because that's what people do. They're not considering the form, you know, and so it is about like perspective.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I gotta figure out some kind of like overarching term that we can all like re-on to communicate in the same way, I think you need to, like, think about how this language is brand new and that there are other forms, like the novel, right, suspension of disbelief, which is a, which is a fictional device designed to get us to buy in, buy it, because back then it's like I have a book. Right, the early novels weren't actually like fiction. Most early novels in print were like instructional, almost like technical manuals. You know, like you are reading a book about how to you know, like the farmer's almanac, right, you know. But then, when, like, literacy became a thing, everybody starts reading. It's like, let's, let's change it up, like, let's, let's go one more, let's like. He said what show don't tell or show simulate you're, you're in a book, you're simulating, you're reading, you know you're reading, but it's not about like you've got the feeder of the mind in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not just about how many birds like, like you know, or ducks you're raising, it's like how many. What is the relationship? Animal farm, you know.
Speaker 1:So, kuyia, I'm curious, tell us about this music video, Because Okay.
Speaker 4:Before I do that, I just want to build on top of what Sam just said Go ahead, thank Thank you. You made a great point about the language is still forming and I also want to point out that I think that there are ideal ways a story is told, like not everything should be an immersive video, not everything should be a comic book, not everything should be a movie, not everything should be a TV series. There is ideal ways to tell a story and those ideas can be adapted, but I do feel, like you know, like there still is an ideal way Like oh, this was like. Sometimes you often hear like oh, this should have been a series, or this should have this should have been a movie, or oh, another bad anime adaptation. Why so? For these reasons, like I know, I sound pretty cringed when I try to make that happen. When I say I I like to return, refer to vr180 videos as virtues, and I like to explain what I do as a virtuography because I want people to understand that this is a completely different art form from it's similar, but it's very different from traditional filmmaking, much like how foil painting and graffiti are still technically paints, but on one side. You have a couple of days for the paint to dry, so you can still mix in colors and the other side, you might get shot or arrested. So you can still mix in colors and the other side you might get shot or arrested. So very different styles but still technically paint right and what we do like building the simulation versus showing and maintaining the suspension of disbelief. There is still suspension of disbelief. That's what you're trying to do with maintaining the simulation, but the paradigm and the actions and activities that you do like is like a bit different. All this is pretty much what I try to practice in my music virtue uh, freaky friday, shout out, I tied it back in, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:So the idea is that like, uh, you know my friend virat or v she, you know pretty girl, we in la, you know, and she's taking you for a ride around town. So I had to ask a lot of friends like okay, especially transplant friends, like when you first moved to la or when you first came to la, like what are the things that you expected about this place? The beach, nightlife, diverse group of friends being in the city, boom, boom, boom, all right. So a lot of location, things. So got to show, the beach, got to show, nightlife got to show, maybe being in a top-down car, palm trees, silver Lake, Easy expectations, silver Lake, yeah, yeah, you know, easy expectations, silver Lake, yeah, silver Lake, easy expectations.
Speaker 4:Okay, what are fantasies I can fulfill within that? Okay, well, maybe you're in a really cool, young, hip group of pretty friends, right? Or when you're at the club, when you're at the bar, you know like they're all dancing along with you and maybe you've never done that, or she's really into you, or or you know, just like you're teleporting around magically. There's no traffic, you don't have to sit in the parking lot. Well, it's like amazing fantasies, right, and those that, that two piece combo it was kind of like my North star of how do I want to present this idea? How do I give you an experience? How do I, you know, create a simulation that's still like that, that gives you an idea of like, okay, I'm here, but at the same time, we're still, like you know, magically teleporting.
Speaker 4:But hyper reality simulate within the context, yeah, which within the context of the music video. So, within that context, it's like it's okay if we hop around and we're teleporting here and there, it's okay. That was the way that I could see fulfilling fantasy. Easiest way to fulfill fantasy by making you feel like you're part of this group, that this girl is really into you, that these are your friends and you're all partying together, having a good time together and you're all partying together, having a good time together. And, yeah, that was the idea behind the music video Freaky Friday. It's something I've had in my head for a long time, and probably the longest part of the entire production was simply finding an artist that I can do the video with.
Speaker 1:I absolutely believe that, I absolutely believe that, I absolutely believe that.
Speaker 4:Not every song fits the format. So I got so many folks that do music. But then there's so many folks of those whose music I like and so many folks of those like, okay, we can do something with, could do something with a, you know, immersive video, and then even less of okay, but who's available? And all that led me to v. Thank you so much. But yeah, that all of it was done out of my own pocket, like a budget of zero dollars, like I was like, all right, like I work a nine to five and like, and I was like I just wanted to get this passion project off because my baby daughter was about to be born in a few months. So I'm like, okay, I won't have time after, after her, so I gotta get, I gotta get it, I gotta get it out. So that was like kind of the driving force to get for me to execute. And I think, as a proof of concept of all these things I've told you about, don't just go simulate Witness victims through a killer Many expectations and balanced fulfillment.
Speaker 4:The camera is a person, or really the camera is a viewer. And one more concept to give you guys Acting with the camera Okay, so what I mean by that is, imagine that you're taking a selfie video, right? I don't know if you guys do this, but when I was a lot younger I'd be like on Stanford, on the ground. I'd be like, hey, you know who it is. Lot younger, I'd be like, you know, on on stamp or on the grand. I'd be like, hey, you know what it is. We are here and, like I would be, I'd be toasting, but you know, you know, toast the camera, right. But if you toast the camera, like to an immersive video, what does that mean? You're toasting the eyes, yeah, right, it, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 4:So I had so when I was filming, I had to direct the actor, actresses, like what, like what it means to act towards as if it's a person, right? So, for example, in the very beginning, when they say hi, right, when I'm like five feet away from you, like when I say I, typically if I'm shooting a video, say hey, yo, I'll say hi to the camera, you're like, what's up? But you want to do that to a person who's only five feet away from you. You want to have this big gesture. It's a lot smaller, right? Suddenly the gesture is oh, hey, what's up. Yeah, and that's exactly why the girls said like, oh hey. And then, like you know, and nami, she's like it's just like a head nod, right, or yeah, it's kind of cool right, like like a lot smaller movement, that are more intimate and acting with the camera to help again maintain the simulation yeah, when she pulled out the joint, I was like this feels like I kind of want to.
Speaker 2:I'm the the victim here. I was, I was yeah, yeah, but now that's actually an opportunity for me to act like you know so.
Speaker 1:So how long was the? How long was the shoot? Two days, two days, two days. Wow, yes, sir, you really knocked that one.
Speaker 4:I'm working nine to five.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I'm working nine to five on a Friday. I'm going to call in sick Friday and get all the interior shots done. And then Saturday was all the car shots from just driving around, I rented a car off of Oro I think that's what the app is called. Yeah, okay, the car shot. I did a lot of. I shot with this, the cap.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I did a lot of I shot with this the Cap. Oh, okay, we were actually so did you shoot the Okay? So what did you shoot the whole video with? That's it. That's it, the Cap. Okay, cool, that's a lot better quality than you managed to eek some pretty good quality out of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was a real consistency. Yeah, there's just one camera.
Speaker 4:And what I've figured out is that the auto settings are shit.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure, Did you get a custom firmware or something?
Speaker 4:Yeah, the last firmware was super necessary, but I have about eight to ten hours of shots of, like different camera settings at low light and like okay, and like noise suppression, mid noise suppression, low noise suppression, high. What I learned was one if you put on auto ISO, like it cranks it up to like the top is like 6400. And it cranks it up higher than that. It's really weird. Exposure setting like exposure is not even exposure. It's really. It's like f-stop, really. It's just mislabeled and it doesn't always work. Like sometimes you set it to a different thing and it doesn't always work.
Speaker 4:The cap is a light vampire and you need to see what you expose for. But the way I found out that the cap isn't all that terrible, because when I first bought it I had such buyer's remorse I was like, oh, this is dog shit. What did I just buy? I should have just put saving. I started bringing that around everywhere I went because that was the easiest thing about when I was making vlogs with my views. Xr, I just put it in my pocket, but this one not very much. But I was trying to force myself to learn how to use it because AF they don't have a return policy, because if you ask for a return policy, they'll just ghost you in the email. So, whatever They'll ghost you, I was trying, I was trying to. I had six miles, but one night, like I think, I brought it to a bar and then, like um, we went to in and out afterwards and in and out has like super bright white.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:It's like daytime in there, right yeah, and it was like it was like one in the morning and I was like just filming what my wife like go down on the like, on on a double double. And like when I watched it back in the head, I'm like this is good, like whatever, like this is surprisingly good, like it's, it's clear, it's as clear as an R5C. I was like what's going on? What's going on? That's when I learned that if you give the calf enough light, like it's fine, but the big part is that it can't do dynamic rings very well, like super dark shadows and super bright highlights. It just can't do.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so what you have, what you end up having to do, is that you have to have either strong fill it's pretty much a low contrast ratio so you need to supplement it with either high key or high fill, something like that, because if you have really dark shadows, it kind of gets shitty. So that's why, when I was doing test shots driving in my car, when I was doing test shots driving in my car, I was just in my regular sedan and driving at night trying to find, okay, what street has the best lights. That would be really cool. But what I noticed is that the interior cabin was really dark and you can't really see me, meaning that you wouldn't be able to see the girls, but outside it's blown out. I'm like, oh shit, like what do I do about that? But if I'm standing outside at night on a welded street, I look fine because I'm what the ambient light. So the idea of getting a drop top was not only for the fanning fulfillment, but it was also a necessity in order to pull off like those interior shots yeah
Speaker 1:that's why you didn't so you didn't blow out from outside which I I could exactly. I knew as soon as I watched I was like genius idea to just use a jeep so you don't even have to worry about because, yeah, because we've done a couple test shots with interiors and it always is that inside is dark and anything outside is just white, because you can't see anything, because it's all blown out, because there's too much conscious.
Speaker 4:So good, look, you know, like color grading them, oh yeah, even if you're the top tier color grade, it's double the pain. And I'm like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a, I can't color grade Like I'm not even like a videographer by trade, like I'm an art director and you know, in entertainment, I was going to ask.
Speaker 1:I was like do you, do you have a history in film? Did you go to film school or no Like.
Speaker 4:so here's the thing Like I've I, or no like like so. So here's the thing like, uh, I've, I've done like youtube videos since I was like like you know, like over a decade now, like just on and off. It's just like I. Just I was just raised with youtube and I learned a lot of like um, videos fit off of youtube.
Speaker 4:But what I do have is that like, because I'm an art director and I work with, like you know, advertising and I work with video, you know, and a lot of graphic design and Photoshop and motion design, it's like I have video experience through that. So, while I'm not on set making movies, I am making ads and that is a form of video creation. But what I have with me is an eye for design and composition in that regard, in that paradigm, video creation. But what I have with me is like an eye for design and like and composition in that regard and that paradigm, but also like, because I'm also avid, you know, vr gamer, it's like I also have an understanding of like, what I like about VR, what I love about VR, why and I really really have to sit down and had to sit down and ask these questions of myself, like why do I like vr? Why, why, why make a video in vr?
Speaker 4:Like, uh, this was a lot of introspection over the past like two, maybe three years to build this toolkit of paradigms, like what I'm giving you right now, what I'm giving you guys right now, this is like. This has been like a lot of self-introspection and like trying to figure out, like like how does it like what? How does it work? Like what makes a good virtue good, because we've all had a lot of bad vr experiences, but what makes a good one?
Speaker 4:it's like so stand out right I mean so good, yeah, no and and yeah, it's like answering, like asking those questions and being able to answer them is like that was such a big part into my current paradigm of Virtuography. Yeah, let me just paraphrase the bullet points. All right, everyone. Shout out VirtuMassive. Remember, don't just show, simulate. Be sure to meet expectations and fulfill fantasies. The camera represents a person viewing, so remember how you treat the camera. You got to pick out what role the camera plays, whether it's a witness or a victim, and be sure that you're with the camera, not just at the camera. There's a difference. Shout out Curtis Hickman Hyperreality Highly recommend this read. There's a difference. Shout out Curtis Hickman Hyperreality. Highly recommend this read. It's a fantastic book that describes design paradigms for VR specifically.
Speaker 4:Shout out the Stereoscope podcast. Big ups Byron, big ups Sean. Big ups Anthony. Shout out Matt Sato, me4u. Check that music video out. It's like one of my first inspirations. Shout out Adam Contreras, kyle McCarty, spinning Blade of RVR180 Films. If you want to discuss VR180 hardware, check us out on subreddit at RVR180 Films. Shout out Monstrack TV. That guy has a really awesome music capture. Music event capture Habibi Wang he just got from Hong Kong who just got this really interesting short film Lucid Dreamer. Big Ups Always and yeah until the next one, stay immersed.
Speaker 1:Cool Kwee Quatro.
Speaker 4:You can get me on all my socials at Kwee Quatro.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Kwee. It was great having on the podcast and I'm sure we'll interact a ton in the future.